Truth, Lies and Deep Sand Beds

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Truth, Lies and Deep Sand Beds

Postby paulimjada » Sun Sep 24, 2006 2:58 pm

Significant deep sand beds write ups and references

http://www.ronshimek.com/Deep%20Sand%20Beds.htm
Ron Shrimeks method circa 2000-2001. Excellent resource. The ratio on sand size is important and critical. He also discusses bacterial effects on a system and why infauna works hand in hand with it. This wasl also written with adoption by barebottom tanks in mind. :idea:

Quote :
"Problems
More imagined than real problems bedevil keepers of sand beds. The imagined problems are proposed by people who are ignorant of the sand bed dynamics. Among these imaginary problems are accumulations of hydrogen sulfide and detritus, and the need for sifting. Hydrogen sulfide will indeed be formed in the lowermost layers of a deep sand bed. It will NOT migrate up through the sediments to poison a tank. Hydrogen sulfide is an amazingly toxic gas, but that toxicity is exceeded by its pungent rotten-egg odor. The gas will have an exceptionally strong odor, and will seem overwhelming at levels well BELOW toxic amounts. If you can smell this stuff without it literally taking your breath away, it won't be at a harmful concentration. There is no real evidence to indicate that it may reach toxic levels in a deep sand bed.
Detritus build up in the sediment is another non-problem. If the sediment fauna is thriving, there will be a slight build up of fine detritus while the rest will be processed by the infauna. The final imaginary problem, the presumed need for sifting in a healthy sand bed, simply does not exist. Small organism movements "sift" the sand sufficiently. Any other sifting of a healthy bed will cause serious harm.
Sand beds recycle materials and export many of the excess nutrients in an aquarium. Some excess nutrients are mobilized by becoming soluble through metabolic processes and need to be exported either as harvestable macroalgae or animals, grown in the main tank or a sump.
The only real problem with a sand bed is the reduction in diversity as the bed ages. This is caused by extinction and replacement problems because the volume of our beds is simply too small for some species to generate self-sustaining populations. This is remedied, by purchasing a detritivore or recharge kit or two every year or so to give a boost to the fauna.
"
and
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003- ... /index.php
"How Sand Beds Really Work" also by Ron Shrimek circa 2003 ReefkeepingOnline.

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/deepsandbeds.htm
This one is also good but dated. It still promotes DSB as primarily a bacterial NNR devices similar to a plenum (prevalent in the early 90s). Emphasis on ARAGONITE as media. The article presents a DSB as an all in one device. An NNR, an infauna bed and a buffering medium. Incidentally a plenum based setup works best as a buffer and calcium supplement (though negligible) system as the lower plenum level becomes highly anoxic and full of sulfide. I had a plenum layer and a DSB sideby side in the same sump and the DSB is filled with worms and critters running around the bottom. The plenum is devoid of visible life. Acid.

http://www.miniaturereef.com/Deep%20Sand%20Beds.htm
Nice approach. Building the sand bed slowly.And mixed grades with emphasis on small fine sand.
"The secret ingredient! (No it's not a little bottle with a hefty price attached)
Although I have used deep sand beds for a number of years with success, it was not until I made a change to the sand bed mix that I realised I had not been tapping its full potential. What made the difference was being tipped off about this by reading an interesting piece of research on the relationship between particle size and colonisation levels. It appears much of the life in a sand bed appreciates a very small particle size - in practice the grain size is little more than sand dust. Often termed super fine sand.
When I slowly added this to my sand bed the result was amazing. The amount of colonising life that you could see through the front glass seemed to undergo a population explosion over a period of a few weeks. "

http://saltaquarium.about.com/od/livesa ... albert.htm
Basic plenum setups. Nice reference. :)

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/6/aafeature
The comparison between Plenum based and DSB systems conducted by Toonen. Definitive article. Must read (especially for plenum users) :shock:
Quote:
"SUMMARY.
* Our experiment shows no evidence for any of the espoused benefits of a plenum (reviewed by Goemans 1999). Instead our results suggest that any benefits seen are a direct consequence of the presence of the sediments themselves rather than the void space beneath it.
* We show that even among identical tanks set up in a laboratory without any live animals, there can be dramatic differences in performance from one aquarium to the next (see Figures 2 & 3 above). Our results highlight the problem with any study lacking proper replication, and in which there are no controls. We argue that anecdotal evidence is simply presentation of an opinion in cases such as this, and more than 5 years of heated debate has resulted from the staunch defense of these opinions.
* We urge hobbyists to develop a good 'BS' detector that will allow you to question information presented to you without any experimental evidence to support it."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_sand_bed
Now how confusing should it get! Even in Wikipedia, DSB is akined to a Plenum!!!!! pasaway.....:twisted:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/6/lines/view
Filtration techniques of a reef aquarium. Nice article. 8)

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-10/eb/index.php
Vodka and the sand bed. Vodka in a shot glass mas ok.

http://www.reefcorner.com/Manual/nitrogen_cycle.htm
Nice reference to the Nitrogen Cycle or the Bacterial Cycle. :D

and

Last but not the least .........BS meter...:shock:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-06/rs/index.php
Want to learn more about DSB?
http://www.reefphilippines.com/forums/v ... php?t=2255

60 g tank reef 20 g sump T5 2x24HO T8 2x20NO 75kg LR, 4-6" dsb (3++ old), mod Sanders Skimmer, Chaeto 2x9W coolwhite rev photo.

6.6 G nano
www.reefphilippines.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2178
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Postby lombard0 » Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:21 am

...
Last edited by lombard0 on Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby paulimjada » Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:35 am

At your service sir....
Want to learn more about DSB?
http://www.reefphilippines.com/forums/v ... php?t=2255

60 g tank reef 20 g sump T5 2x24HO T8 2x20NO 75kg LR, 4-6" dsb (3++ old), mod Sanders Skimmer, Chaeto 2x9W coolwhite rev photo.

6.6 G nano
www.reefphilippines.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2178
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Postby audioactive08 » Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:48 pm

Very informative. :)

I myself advocate this type of sand bed.

Since andito na rin yung thread, might I add this for supplemental reading (including references)

This one is from the may edition of FAMA, by Bob Goemans

http://www.filelodge.com/files/room41/1 ... eepest.txt

Mods, pwede po ba natin i-sticky itong thread ni sir paul?
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Postby chonglai » Wed Sep 27, 2006 2:18 pm

audio
hehehehe. yung nagsulat ata nito e proponent ng jaubert method e. parang tinitira niya yung DSBs. pero parang di ako agree dun sa di daw effective yung fine grain sa DSB kasi ang daming gumagamit nung remote dsb di ba tapos successfull naman yung pagbawas ng nitrates according dun sa mga nakatry. cge sticky ko na to.
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Postby audioactive08 » Wed Sep 27, 2006 2:26 pm

chonglai wrote:audio
hehehehe. yung nagsulat ata nito e proponent ng jaubert method e. parang tinitira niya yung DSBs. pero parang di ako agree dun sa di daw effective yung fine grain sa DSB kasi ang daming gumagamit nung remote dsb di ba tapos successfull naman yung pagbawas ng nitrates according dun sa mga nakatry. cge sticky ko na to.


oo, pansin ko rin di sya pabor sa DSB. pero useful pa rin ang DSBs as long as tama yung paggamit nito. (sufficient sandbed microfauna, flow, grain size at depth)

tama lang sya sa point na magiging ineffective to kung mali yung paggamit ng DSB. question: pwede ba yun? maling DSB? sagot: oo. :)

ayan sticky na. :D sana makatulong sa mga reefers.

edit:

salamat nga pala sa pag-encode amchan. hehe :D
-Marty

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Postby randell » Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:50 pm

lets ask the RP members on their experiences with DSB.... i know a lot of people uses DSBs so the results are closer to home. For what I gather, the best DSB are those that uses finer sand, like Boracay sand... tama ba?

Nice postings Paul, tyaga mo... good for us.
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Postby paulimjada » Thu Sep 28, 2006 3:09 am

Mga writeup ni Bob Goemans una kong nabasa 5-6 years ago when I started and I did a plenum based nano and after a white the combo plenum/dsb mini reef.

@randell - kasi long ago I got into this debate foray in the web and back then kumakampi pa me kay Goeman/Jaubert setup/Monaco Method which uses plenums. Kasi nga ok yung nano at mini reef ko which had plenums.

Though I was (and many plenum advocates back then) proven wrong with Toonens experiment, it was good as the DSB+macroalgae method is now an established component of filtration of reef tanks.
Want to learn more about DSB?
http://www.reefphilippines.com/forums/v ... php?t=2255

60 g tank reef 20 g sump T5 2x24HO T8 2x20NO 75kg LR, 4-6" dsb (3++ old), mod Sanders Skimmer, Chaeto 2x9W coolwhite rev photo.

6.6 G nano
www.reefphilippines.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2178
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Postby randell » Fri Sep 29, 2006 4:19 pm

thanks paul.. by the way, nice title for this thread....

mukha ngang medyo mas favored ang pro DSB ... i'll just follow what everyone does here.. at least pag nag crash mga DSB natin, we have each to comfort.. hehe....
80 gallon Rimless Elos Tank
Reef Maniac Beckette Skimmer
Eheim Return Pump
Marine Hub Lumenarc/Alanod Refloctors
250w Metal Hallide Lamps
Teco Chiller
SPS, LPS, etc.

http://randelltiongson.com/
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Postby christian » Fri Sep 29, 2006 4:49 pm

randell wrote:thanks paul.. by the way, nice title for this thread....

mukha ngang medyo mas favored ang pro DSB ... i'll just follow what everyone does here.. at least pag nag crash mga DSB natin, we have each to comfort.. hehe....


sir randel you can opt a remote dsb for you... para if mag crush you just need to cut the supply of water then ok na pwede mo na tanggalin tank at palitan laman... mas mabilis palitan ang sand dahil nakahiwalay sa system... kaysa pag nasa main tank ang dsb mahirap palitan dahil marami laman... :)
desperately trying to find new ways to ease reefkeeping... :)

75 gallons reef tank:
viewtopic.php?t=1761

180 gallons reef tank of my parents:
viewtopic.php?t=6211

275 gallons reef tank:
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=9506
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Postby randell » Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:57 pm

yes christian... pretty much like yours, peter' and phils... but i dont have the space in my cabinet and id like to contain everything... thanks bud.
80 gallon Rimless Elos Tank
Reef Maniac Beckette Skimmer
Eheim Return Pump
Marine Hub Lumenarc/Alanod Refloctors
250w Metal Hallide Lamps
Teco Chiller
SPS, LPS, etc.

http://randelltiongson.com/
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Postby christian » Fri Sep 29, 2006 7:24 pm

randell wrote:yes christian... pretty much like yours, peter' and phils... but i dont have the space in my cabinet and id like to contain everything... thanks bud.


your welcome... :)
desperately trying to find new ways to ease reefkeeping... :)

75 gallons reef tank:
viewtopic.php?t=1761

180 gallons reef tank of my parents:
viewtopic.php?t=6211

275 gallons reef tank:
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=9506
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Postby audioactive08 » Sat Sep 30, 2006 5:09 pm

randell wrote:thanks paul.. by the way, nice title for this thread....

mukha ngang medyo mas favored ang pro DSB ... i'll just follow what everyone does here.. at least pag nag crash mga DSB natin, we have each to comfort.. hehe....


hehe count me in on that too. :lol:

actually bob goemans' so-called refute actually made the DSB case stronger. maraming mawawala pag walang DSB.

pang-clarify lang talaga kung paano gagamitin ng maayos ang DSB. :wink:
-Marty

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To err is human, but to do the same error all over again is stupid.
If don't have patience for the hobby, it's better to quit.

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Postby blackwing02 » Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:05 pm

had to ask if what i did to my dsb/fuge is correct..

i placed 3" of 00 sand then put 4" of (don't know the exact size but they seem comparable to rock salts) sand. it is so because i ran out of 00 sand. :cry:
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Postby jackryan » Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:56 pm

randell wrote:lets ask the RP members on their experiences with DSB.... i know a lot of people uses DSBs so the results are closer to home. For what I gather, the best DSB are those that uses finer sand, like Boracay sand... tama ba?

Nice postings Paul, tyaga mo... good for us.


Are those fine sand, being sold at Cartimar, really Boracay sand?
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